Help wanted on Panzer IIIJ number 525....

[bwiber]

Hi all,

I am planning, well have been for years, to build panzer number 525 of the 24th Panzer Division at Stalingrad. The question I have is shown in the image below... which is fairly common both in books and on the web... I believe the scan I am using is from "Death of the Leaping Horseman" by Jason Mark.

I am wondering about the "collar" shown highlighted in yellow in the enlargement... I am not sure I have seen this in any other images... Is it a splash ring that goes around the front of the cupola?

Thank you for any assistance you can render...

Bob B)

PS.... Jenny, see? I can talk something besides "short, fat airplanes".... :laugh:

 

[jknaus]

I looked through my books and couldn't see that in any of them nor in the drawings. Maybe the shielding for the vision port is broken and lying there?
James

 

[bwiber]

Don't know.... that is the problem...... :S

I have stared at that photo under magnification, etc. and can't get any more of an idea...
And none of the other shots of 525 are as clear or close as this one... Wish they were....

The other issue I see is modeling the dust and dirt that is piled on the fenders....

Well, thanks for your thoughts....... will have to give that option some thought....

Bob

 

[jknaus]

If it was an M it might be a splash guard. I found one drawing showing a ring around the front half of the cupola about 2 or 3 inches high and about 2 inches away. Nothing otherwise.
James

 

[jknaus]

Me again. I would really lean towards this being a M. Those are the only ones I've found in my refs with the splash guard in front of the cupola. Also when you look at the J cupola it looks more complex while your pic and the M drawings I have show more of a simplistic barrel shape. Lastly (at least to my eyes) the J had the escape doors in the hull while the M didn't and I cant see a door on your pic. I'm not sure if I'm helping or hindering. Unfortunately I dont have the book on the Leaping Horesmen so cant see what you are. BTW how is that book?
James

 

[bwiber]

I don't believe it is an M.... has the short barrel and the hull escape hatches as you can see in the image below....

Also, note that the "collar" extends to this side of the cupola also. I will have to see if any of the other shots of 24th Panzer IIIJ's show evidence of this "collar" if they do then it might be something that the division added prior to the M's being issued. Not to mention the fact that Jason has dated the first photo to sometime around September and with M's being issued in October it is unlikely to be a M just on that account.

But there is definitely a raised "collar"...

Thanks, Bob

 

[jknaus]

You got me stumped. But that does look like the splash ring I mentioned. Thanks for posing this problem, I had fun researching this even if I wasnt much help. Got me thinking about tanks again and gave me an excuse to look through some books. Hope you get it sorted out.
James

 

[moon puppy]

I thought Laura would have been our best hope on these questions.

 

[bwiber]

Don't know about that Moon Puppy.......

I do appreciate you guys taking a look and tossing out ideas. If nothing else they give me new avenues of thought to explore. I checked the book and could not find any other shots that showed that area any clearer, or any other tanks that you could really see if there was anything there...

Well, when I get to that build I will just bite the bullet, and build what I can see..... or at least what I think I see.... Now that I finally have the right kit (the Dragon Panzer IIIJ 2in1, which I have 2 of, has the later engine deck and the Initial J has the deck before the vents....... the Trop on the other hand has the right deck :woohoo: )....

Bob

 

[JSteinman]

I look at those two pics and the engine vents go in different directions. The first goes side to side like the early versions, and the second - front to back like a later deck!

 

[moon puppy]

Laura, aka Kreighshoer, is one of our Admins and most knowledgeable on German subjects. She'll be around shortly and likely take notice of this thread. What time is it in Munich anyway?

 

[bwiber]

About the engine deck on Panzer 525.... I see what you are saying but I believe that there is a small dark area in the middle of what appears to be the "front to back" engine vent that is actually the shading of the area on the rear "side to side" engine vent. As the two photos are of the same vehicle number, both from the 24th Panzer Division and taken within days of each other (or at least the same area in Stalingrad) I tend to believe the vehicle was not replaced between the shots. I do grant you that the covers line up really well and it is hard to tell...... as it is with a lot of things in reproduced photos. So while I see your point, I tend to differ in the interpretation of the photos.

However, even if the photos were of different vehicles it still shows what appears to be a collar in front of the cupola. The other shots of the 525 are to the rear and far enough away that neither detail is visible...

However, I do thank you for your comments......... any comments like that tend to make be go back over the photos even more closely. Which is something that is never amiss....

Thank you all for your responses and help...
Bob

 

[Kreighshoer]

it looks like a short barrelled ausf j that has been in the field workshop recently.

i really can't tell what that thingy around the turret could be! the only logical explanation would be a field mod splash guard to protect the visors from debris in street fighting!