Painting armour

[paddy]

I notice here and on You tube people tend to assemble armour then paint ii complete adding tyres to track wheels and springs etc later ? Is this the best way rather than painting parts aircraft style before assembly ? I was also looking at a guy on you tube painting a tank and rather than pre shade with a darker colour , he painted his tank black, sprayed in the panel centres white then did an over coat of olive green. Almost the exact opposite of pre shading an aircraft. It looks like a technique that will take some practice and probably a finer airbrush than the one i have. On a separate note with my move towards armour i have also mover towards MIG paints as they seem to do a better range than Tamiya for army drabs.

 

[JSteinman]

May I suggest taking a look at the painting of this JT?

1/35 Tamiya Jagdtiger MiniArt building contruction

Rob Riviezzo Built this using Aber and MK details. He has been after me for a while to paint one of his builds, so here we go! Black and White pre-shade technique using MIG one-shot primers.

modelersalliance.org

 

[paddy]

Thanks John, loads of interesting info there. I think i will have this down to a tee in about 20 years

 

[Heavens Eagle]

Paddy, assembling a kit is really how YOU decide to do it. If you have not done many or any armor projects before, look at the instructions and think it through. Experience will give you a better perspective. I myself tend to build in sub-assemblies and paint as I go.

I am sure you will figure it out just fine.

 

[JSteinman]

I generally break things down to as few subassemblies as possible. For a tank, hull, turret, running gear. I paint tools in place, but usually spare road-wheels separately. Stowage is done on a case by case basis. For halftracks and trucks and open top vehicles, yeah your milage will vary!

 

[paddy]

Looking through the web there is a huge amount of builds which are great to pick up tips from. I am surprised how many North African tanks, so 41 42 in desert camo have very prominent rust. ... in the desert. I suppose these were transported by sea, often on deck in the salt air but there is also pictures of wrecks today , still in the Desert 80 years on that are not really rusty. My experience of tank paint is it was applied with a spade and sets like concrete Most of these 8th army tanks then travelled up italy in late 1943 i think, we think of Monty's 8th army as a desert unit but i often travel past the 8th army memorial at what was their base in the UK and the Cromwell IV tank outside has little sign of rust and its been there for many years in the British weather ......

But then green is not going to show rust like a yellow tank.

I would think a lot of British tanks were land locked on our small island until let lose in June 1944. Most i would imagine would be new and if i know the British army, polished with a tooth brush most days However once in combat running through trees and walls/buildings i can imagine they detreated quite quickly but a lot of build seem to show fading ? things dont fade in the European theatre, as any one from the black forest or easy company...
I suppose the answer is you can do what you like and pretty much invent a scenario that backs up your choice but as everything was olive drab by 1944 its going to be hard to make a tank look very worn in this scale without some artistic licence...well quite a lot actually.

Pity i cant find more colour pictures from the time but i think MUD was the order of the day.

My research continues.

On a different note i think i need a new airbrush. At present i use a Paasche VLS which is great for larger areas like 1/48 ands 1/32 aircraft camo but i think even the smallest tip available is .5mm and i need to be down at about .2mm i think with tank detail at 1/35.
Looking at a Iwata Eclipse HP CS Dual Action ? any one used one of these ?

 

[JSteinman]

Some advice, go easy on the rust.

 

[paddy]

So it looks like tank building in my ignorance is really an exercise in painting .....bit of a blow as not my strong point, especially people.
I have shelved my M10 as i thought it was too good to practise on and bought a Valentine MkII which i thought was a 1970's old kit. turns out its new and equally as well produced as my M10 but anyway i will go for it. Dont think this is worth a WIP, nothing i can teach you guys about armour but i may come for help if i dont cock it up completely...here goes

 

[Heavens Eagle]

Paddy, go ahead on the WIP stuff. You might come up with something new or post something that someone will see and point out a possible better way, or a detail that got overlooked. Every one of my builds is a new experience and I always learn or figure out something new.

 

[SdAufKla]

FWIW, I generally assemble as much as I think I can paint well while keeping those parts and subassemblies that I want to give extra attention to separate. Sometimes I prioritize the continuity of the weathering and work in larger subassemblies, and sometimes I'll break things down even more than usual. It really just depends on how I envision the finished model in the display context that want for it.

Here are some examples of fairly typical, for me, parts break downs for painting, weathering and progressive assembly (Asuka Firefly, Tamiya M10, and DML StuG IV). As I assemble the model, I also continue to do more finish and weathering usually finishing up with transparent dust glazes and tying the base colors into the model...

 

[moon puppy]

See this I can understand, it's when y'all install everything on a tank and then paint it. That blows my mind.

 

[paddy]

Great info again.. My first big mistake today was thinking that my new MIG acrylics were like Tamiya and could be thinned with spirit thinners...WRONG. They are water based and they go in to a rubber gloop with isopropanol So after an hour, stripping and cleaning the Airbrush i did eventually get some primer on

 

[Heavens Eagle]

The paints these days are a pain! I still love the old enamels, but am getting used to the Vallejo paints. I also found some wonderful paints that the figure builders use that are exceptional. They are like a thinner better quality Polly-S acrylics and they are over the top for a lot of things.

Here is a link to the Garage Kit USA Paint Sets. If you want to see how the paints work look around on the site as there are a number of fabulous figures that are painted using their paints. The owner has stated that he is pondering doing some military paints.

 

[paddy]

I have been thinking about a diorama......probably better if i didn't but it is something i would like to try one day.
My problem is figures, i find them near impossible to get right but then i got to thinking i dont need figures...i mean do they have a place in a diorama anyway ?. My point is that tanks, aircraft, buildings etc are inanimate objects and can and do stay still. As soon as you add people staying still it sort of loses something for me. Think of a diorama as a real time view out of a window, but add people in a frozen position and it becomes a photograph, a snap shot in time.
So i will go for the view out the window Now i need to get my thinking cap on as i need to come up with something that is actually interesting, i dont think a Tank on a sandy base will cut it here amongst you lot ,it could expose me as a fraud

 

[paddy]

One other small point when thinking about the Grant tank in British use in North africa..., all the period photo's seem to show them as sand all over while most of the models and box art show them as camouflaged ? although one of these is a lee and the other a Grant.

 

[RichB]

The British Army lost the plot for awhile when it came to standardized camouflage in North Africa.

The first Grants began arriving in North Africa in Aug 1941. The camouflage order in effect from Nov 1940 called for a base colour of either Portland or Light Stone applied over the US Olive Drab before issue to units. Many vehicles at this time were receiving the 3 colour Caunter scheme. The Grants at this time were arriving incomplete, missing guns, radios, sand shields and other equipment. These vehicles were issued to training schools or remained at depots awaiting outfitting and received only the base colour. An Oct 1941 order made Light Stone the only colour to be applied.

In Dec 1941, an new order authorized either Portland of Light Stone as the base colour with a single disruptive colour applied over it, at the Commands discretion. Colours to be used were Slate, Silver Grey, SCC 7 Green or Black Brown. The first combat units received Grants in Jan 1942 and the term "discretion" led to a range of Brigade unique patterns of bands, splotches and larger areas. Some units also strayed from the single colour rule.

In Oct 1942 a new order was issued which saw the unique patterns disappear. This order included drawings for standardized camouflage patterns for the vehicles requiring them. Desert Pink ZI was the new base colour with a Dark Olive Green (similar to SCC 7) disruptive pattern. Very Dark Brown, Black and Dark Slate were alternates. Soft skins usually only received the base Desert Pink. Portland and Light Stone continued to be used as the base until stocks were used up.

As the British advanced westward, a new order was issued in Apr 1943. The new base colour was SCC 5 Light Mud with a bold pattern of Black or SCC 7 Green. US built vehicles often had the Light Mud sprayed over the US Olive Drab in the approved pattern for the vehicle. This scheme would be in effect in Tunisia, Sicily, Italy and the Middle East. By 1944, NWE colours were the standard in Italy and Middle East.

Grants were phased out of frontline service at the end of the Tunisian Campaign in May 1943. They did continue in a support role as Scorpion mine flail tanks during the Sicilian Campaign. Due to the size and spacious interior, many senior officers had Grants converted to Command vehicles. At least two remained in service until the end of the war in Italy.

Cheers,
Rich

 

[paddy]

Thanks Rich

I also found this

October 1942 – M.E.G.O.1650 cancels all previous patterns and substitutes standardised drawings for certain A.F.V. types and vehicle classes issued by the Camouflage Directorate of GHQ Middle East. Not all vehicles required disruptive painting. Colours stated are: Basic tone of Desert Pink ZI with a disruptive pattern in Dark Olive Green probably similar to S.C.C.11B and 7 respectively. Black, Very Dark Brown and Dark Slate are alternatives. These were probably similar to S.C.C.14, 1A and Slate 34. These designs are common on Shermans, Grants, Valentines, Crusaders, Stuarts. The 6 Churchill tanks of Kingforce, which were painted in UK with Light Stone No.61 carried a red-brown pattern over this in the Crusader pattern. As Desert Pink was a new colour, Light Stone continued in use on existing vehicles. Desert Pink occurs on its own as a single tone on vehicles of no tactical value and ACVs disguised as 10 ton trucks.

Although M.T.P.46 had provision for M.E. colours the actual the use of this patterning has not been confirmed there although some official pictures taken in UK strongly suggest that this was done.

MAFVA.org

Miniature Armoured Fighting Vehicle Association

www.mafva.org

If you scroll down this site it gives instructions for mixing these colours as well

 

[paddy]

One other thing. when you see camo on a tank like sand with slate or dark green

I notice the colour edges are sharp so must have been hand painted ?
I also read that Shermans were supplied factory olive green and they just added the sand leaving the original green showing ? Does this sound right.?

I ask because if this was an aircraft i would camo using the BluTak method to give a feathered edge but it doesnt look like this is the case with armour.
Also the interior white in Shermans/Grants is not a bright white ? its a creamy white but that might just be the photos ?
Does anyone make a 1/35 Mk1 sherman with a rounded hull/top like the picture that is any good ?

 

[moon puppy]

Only answer I got is it was a hard line demark. If it was brush painted I don't know.

 

[paddy]

I was thinking brush as its a much harder line than the aircraft and probably done in theatre as well in some cases
I would like to find a good model of a Sherman as above which are 8th Army desert machines.