Give that man a beer :drinks
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CRITIQUE OR RIVET COUNTING? AN EDITORIAL
- Thread starter MrT
- Start date
- Status
Sherman 18
Master at Arms
I wrote out this big long thing for this, but at the end I did not like it
1. A finished model is better than anything in my book, so go build something and share it
1. A finished model is better than anything in my book, so go build something and share it
Since we all have different levels of experience, and all have at least attempted a kit, we ALL have something to offer. For example, a novice modeler may state where they had fit issues or confusion caused by instructions.
I don't make assumptions that all who come to the forums are modelers with vast experience. Sometimes one needs to read what newbies come across.
My eight year old son is starting to build models. He likes going on the Internet (only with my supervision, of course) so he wants to see models he can relate to. The perfect builds are out of his reach for now. At this stage, he could care less about accuracy and simply wants to have fun, not frustration.
So, guess which builds I show him? I show him the out of box builds. Those from modelers enjoying the build and not caring about accuracy in outline or details. To him they are Coooooooolllllll (his inflection, not mine).
My point is, to each his/her own. Some modelers go through a build fast then slow down to the finishing stage which they prefer. Others, the build is what they enjoy and don't care for the painting & weathering stage. Yet others want to complete a kit for their collection and move on to the next. If they are enjoying it, I see nothing wrong and appreciate the value of their contribution by posting their work.
Regards,
Paulw
Well-known member
I have been back at this for about 3 years now. A 40 year hiatus and 17 of those in the Navy kept me from doing anything in modeling then 17 years otr trucking. I think in the last three years I have made some strides in my building techniques but I have a long way to go to be as good as most of these guys on this forum are.
Hell I just learned how to get the proper consistency of my paint in order to get a smooth finish. So maybe soon Ill be weathering a well as some of you guys.
Hell I just learned how to get the proper consistency of my paint in order to get a smooth finish. So maybe soon Ill be weathering a well as some of you guys.
I'm coming in late on this topic but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in. I began modeling in 1945 and was happy as a lark doing it on my own for the next 37 years. I had entered contests here and there, sponsored by companies like Woolworth's and the like, but I never really knew anybody else who modeled.
I met Wes Bradley, a current MA member, when he worked in a hobby shop in St. Louis back in 1981. At the time I was building my first large diorama, The Winds of War. He was curious because of the amount of kits I was buying for one diorama and he came out to see it. He then told me about the local chapter of IPMS, and said that the nationals just happened to be in St. Louis in 1982. He said I just had to enter. I joined the chapter and everybody seemed nice and after the Nationals, I had won big there and Fine Scale Modeler, a new magazine at the time, put my diorama on the cover of their second issue. Within months, my work was in magazines in Asia and Europe.
All of a sudden, I had rivet counters all over me. At about that time, Lewis Pruneau, who had recently joined the chapter, brought in a scratch built 1/35th scale model of Dora, the German giant RR gun. I was totally blown away. It was magnificent! However, the rivet counters attacked and it hurt Lewis so much, he left and walked out to his truck with it. I followed him out, told him it was fantastic and gave him a few suggestions on how I would improve it if it was mine. He did, plus added a gantry crane and other things of his own, then took it to the Atlanta 1984 Nationals and took best diorama with it. Then it was on the cover of another Fine Scale Modeler magazine. Lewis and I had became lifelong friends and are still close to this day.
The rest is history. I met Verlinden at that 1984 show and we became business partners a year later. I entered my last model in competition at that same show. It became obvious to me that the rivet counters had joined forces to see that me or Lewis never won another competition. The other reason I quit competition was that I felt a businessman shouldn't compete with his own customers. I was right on both reasons.
Long story, short moral. Rivet counters have been around a very long time. Usually they don't or can't build themselves, but keep themselves in the hobby by passing judgement on those who do build and attempting to prove their expertise in every type of model out there. They can get very vicious, say things behind your back, and sometimes face to face that are hurtful. I watched them destroy young members and new members builds to the point they quit modeling. What a pity.
I surfed all the websites when I ran VLS, but never posted or became a member. I watched the flame wars and the relentless criticism rage. Then my close friend Dave Harper told me about a site ran by a pretty young girl who was also a decent modeler. He asked me to join. I refused for some time, then after looking over the comments, it seemed like it was different. I joined and after a few trials and tribulations, it became Modeler's Alliance. I have found the only criticism here is positively presented critique, constructive criticism, not the hateful garbage on so many other sites. I'm proud to be a member and grateful to Bob and the others on here that make it the enjoyable website that it is. I have come to feel close to so many of you even though we have never met in person.
Bob
I met Wes Bradley, a current MA member, when he worked in a hobby shop in St. Louis back in 1981. At the time I was building my first large diorama, The Winds of War. He was curious because of the amount of kits I was buying for one diorama and he came out to see it. He then told me about the local chapter of IPMS, and said that the nationals just happened to be in St. Louis in 1982. He said I just had to enter. I joined the chapter and everybody seemed nice and after the Nationals, I had won big there and Fine Scale Modeler, a new magazine at the time, put my diorama on the cover of their second issue. Within months, my work was in magazines in Asia and Europe.
All of a sudden, I had rivet counters all over me. At about that time, Lewis Pruneau, who had recently joined the chapter, brought in a scratch built 1/35th scale model of Dora, the German giant RR gun. I was totally blown away. It was magnificent! However, the rivet counters attacked and it hurt Lewis so much, he left and walked out to his truck with it. I followed him out, told him it was fantastic and gave him a few suggestions on how I would improve it if it was mine. He did, plus added a gantry crane and other things of his own, then took it to the Atlanta 1984 Nationals and took best diorama with it. Then it was on the cover of another Fine Scale Modeler magazine. Lewis and I had became lifelong friends and are still close to this day.
The rest is history. I met Verlinden at that 1984 show and we became business partners a year later. I entered my last model in competition at that same show. It became obvious to me that the rivet counters had joined forces to see that me or Lewis never won another competition. The other reason I quit competition was that I felt a businessman shouldn't compete with his own customers. I was right on both reasons.
Long story, short moral. Rivet counters have been around a very long time. Usually they don't or can't build themselves, but keep themselves in the hobby by passing judgement on those who do build and attempting to prove their expertise in every type of model out there. They can get very vicious, say things behind your back, and sometimes face to face that are hurtful. I watched them destroy young members and new members builds to the point they quit modeling. What a pity.
I surfed all the websites when I ran VLS, but never posted or became a member. I watched the flame wars and the relentless criticism rage. Then my close friend Dave Harper told me about a site ran by a pretty young girl who was also a decent modeler. He asked me to join. I refused for some time, then after looking over the comments, it seemed like it was different. I joined and after a few trials and tribulations, it became Modeler's Alliance. I have found the only criticism here is positively presented critique, constructive criticism, not the hateful garbage on so many other sites. I'm proud to be a member and grateful to Bob and the others on here that make it the enjoyable website that it is. I have come to feel close to so many of you even though we have never met in person.
Bob
I certainly don't mind getting crit- after all, I do every day at my job! It's one of the best ways to grow your skills and hone your talents. There's an art to giving crit- one of the most important aspects thereof is knowing when to give it. The goal is to always be helpful, and in a supporting way. I love getting photos and examples of "how I did it." A s a detail-obsessive guy, I welcome the input of rivet-counters- as an artist I deeply appreciate that brand of input as well. If I'm going to stick my foot into unknown waters, say, an LAV-150 with a Cockerill gun, I'd like to get as much help as possible, as I know next to nothing about the subject. 
Stuff that's not useful? "Too bad you'll never be able to see any of that." "Too bad those flat PE bullets ruin the whole thing!" Yes, that last was applied to my Helldiver- apparently the whole thing was ruined- RUINED!! We need a "rolls eyes" emoticon for that.
Stuff that's not useful? "Too bad you'll never be able to see any of that." "Too bad those flat PE bullets ruin the whole thing!" Yes, that last was applied to my Helldiver- apparently the whole thing was ruined- RUINED!! We need a "rolls eyes" emoticon for that.
Sometimes it isn't even the rivet counters who turn away others but the smugness some groups have. In the 1980s, I almost joined the BPMS (Brooklyn Plastic Modelers Society) who held meeting in a photo studio about 30 minutes subway ride from where I lived.
My first visit, expecting to get lost, I went empty handed through some of the worst neighborhoods of that time. I did find the photo studio and met a bunch of modelers. They brought their models and critiqued them.
I was asked what kind of models I built and I stated all kinds but aircraft where my favorite. At the time, I wrote reviews for the IPMS Journal for products I bought and thought others should know about. I was informed that I could be not be good at all kinds and why would I come to a model club empty handed. I smiled, grabbed some pamphlets, scooted out the door and never joined a local club again. The next year, the IPMS President sent me a letter asking me to slow down as they would have to publish an all Saul Garcia review issue, it was meant as a thank you for my contributions (at least, that is how I took it). The letter is in library to this day. I decided to write under another name as well.
Visiting my favorite hobby shop, Gateway Hobbies in Manhattan, I met a fellow modeler from Queens who asked me if I would build some kits for him (they were vacuum-formed and resin as well as conversions from Koster Aero and so on). This is how I began commission builds. My own personal builds took second place to these and it was fun as well. It helped my library grow.
Anyway, the point is... people's tongues, and what they type, can have an effect on others. Use some common sense and speak/write only after you put yourself in the receiving end of what is spoken/written.
Regards,
My first visit, expecting to get lost, I went empty handed through some of the worst neighborhoods of that time. I did find the photo studio and met a bunch of modelers. They brought their models and critiqued them.
I was asked what kind of models I built and I stated all kinds but aircraft where my favorite. At the time, I wrote reviews for the IPMS Journal for products I bought and thought others should know about. I was informed that I could be not be good at all kinds and why would I come to a model club empty handed. I smiled, grabbed some pamphlets, scooted out the door and never joined a local club again. The next year, the IPMS President sent me a letter asking me to slow down as they would have to publish an all Saul Garcia review issue, it was meant as a thank you for my contributions (at least, that is how I took it). The letter is in library to this day. I decided to write under another name as well.
Visiting my favorite hobby shop, Gateway Hobbies in Manhattan, I met a fellow modeler from Queens who asked me if I would build some kits for him (they were vacuum-formed and resin as well as conversions from Koster Aero and so on). This is how I began commission builds. My own personal builds took second place to these and it was fun as well. It helped my library grow.
Anyway, the point is... people's tongues, and what they type, can have an effect on others. Use some common sense and speak/write only after you put yourself in the receiving end of what is spoken/written.
Regards,
Ahhhhh yes, Gateway Hobbies, the freight elevator and the models displayed on the floor. Saul, I could tell you stories about that place.... Memory lane!
Bob
I certainly don't mind getting crit- after all, I do every day at my job! It's one of the best ways to grow your skills and hone your talents. There's an art to giving crit- one of the most important aspects thereof is knowing when to give it. The goal is to always be helpful, and in a supporting way. I love getting photos and examples of "how I did it." A s a detail-obsessive guy, I welcome the input of rivet-counters- as an artist I deeply appreciate that brand of input as well. If I'm going to stick my foot into unknown waters, say, an LAV-150 with a Cockerill gun, I'd like to get as much help as possible, as I know next to nothing about the subject.
Stuff that's not useful? "Too bad you'll never be able to see any of that." "Too bad those flat PE bullets ruin the whole thing!" Yes, that last was applied to my Helldiver- apparently the whole thing was ruined- RUINED!! We need a "rolls eyes" emoticon for that.
Chuck, maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. We all need critiquing, that's how you improve. I have got it here many times and it was good, constructive criticism. That isn't what I was talking about. I'm talking about the vicious stuff I have seen on so many websites. Not constructive, only negative and obviously not intended to help, but to hurt.
Bob
All the time I spent there, I can't believe I missed meeting you! The freight elevator hobby shop was their second. The first was on 38th Street at ground level with nice big windows and all was neat. The move to the second floor on 31st Street had the boxes on the floor but Lou Babiak never got around to putting them away.
:side:
By the time of the name change to Ace Hobbies, the Cuban guy (I believe he was called Marty) was no longer there.
Perhaps you remember Sky Books as well? Off Madison Avenue in a posh area.
Yep, I dated myself.
Regards,
Hey, Big Bob- our replies crossed in sending- I got sidelined by some gardening right in the middle of typing that up. I hear you about all the nastiness- and I'm glad we don't have that here. I guess I've gotten used to having to deal with less-than-intelligent feedback from clients at work, and conversely have learned to appreciate good art direction. One of the big reasons I started my model "blogging" was in direct opposition to all the backbiting and nonconstructive yammering that had saturated so many of the forums I visited.
Like minds, we are, my friend!
Like minds, we are, my friend!
Saul, I have been at both several times, but the freight elevator one I remember the most. Lou was a long time customer of Legacy Distributing, a VLS company. As I said, I can tell you some stories about Lou.
Yes Skybooks and their circular staircase and Bill Dean Books on the third floor, just down the street from St. Patrick's. There was a bar a couple of doors down we used to go to.
Amazing we never ran into each other.
Bob
Yes Skybooks and their circular staircase and Bill Dean Books on the third floor, just down the street from St. Patrick's. There was a bar a couple of doors down we used to go to.
Amazing we never ran into each other.
Bob
It's how we've grown into a community, it's the comradery of Sprue, the Alliance of Modelers that has made us all feel like we are friends and family here. Guess that's why you came up with the name Modelers Alliance. :dude
Plastik Smurff
Well-known member
Mr Letterman appart from the comp's that's a carbon copy of what happend to me,only I did take some of my build's to a local club meeting.After that hour I walked out the door and as I passed the bin,in they went,this was only 2 years ago.
Most of these guy's are on the forum I mentioned eairler and I have seen some of their work,it don't look all that flash to me. :huh:
I wonder if the muppet's that hasseled yourself and Mr Pruneau have used the skill's that you both have pionered and shared with the modeling world.
:drinks
Hey chuck,
No problemo, we're cool! I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't talking about constructive criticism which is helpful and a good thing.
Bob
paddy
Well-known member
The point is nearly all of us came here for the same reason, we were sick of the infighting on the other sites so from day one we were united in a cause. Lets just say we were all experienced in what works and what doesn’t on a successful modelling site so A/ we all know the early warning signs and what to look out for in the event of possible trouble and B/ We have enough respect for each other having suffered at the hands of fools ourselves not be one of those fools here.
I like to think we have the cream of most sites gathered here without the trolls
I like to think we have the cream of most sites gathered here without the trolls
Plastik Smurff
Well-known member
Spot on mate
I like to think we have the cream of most sites gathered here without the trolls
They keep knockn' on the door but they ain't getting in. :coolio
Bagge
Well-known member
good that we have such a good guard dog
A good forum grows and get better and the others fade away...
Good critique and tips are always welcome on my builds, don't be afraid to say if there is something that i make that you think is totally messed up believe me it happens to often.... 
//Mats
A good forum grows and get better and the others fade away...
Good critique and tips are always welcome on my builds, don't be afraid to say if there is something that i make that you think is totally messed up
believe me it happens to often.... //Mats
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