I got a question for all modelers.

[ausf]

As a disclaimer: I don't mean to step on anyone's toes, or disparage any existing product.

I love the expansion of product lines and materials, but I'm curious as to how much current modelers buy into it.

Years ago, when I did prosthetic effects work, there was a medical adhesive I used call Dow 355. You bought it from theatrical supply houses for something like $5 an ounce. One day I called Dow Corning and asked for product samples of 355. They sent two US gallon jugs...free.

To me, the new AK clear product is just Future. It may be tweaked with plasticizers, flatting agents, hardeners, etc or it very well may be they bought a 55 gallon drum of acrylic (hold the scent) from Johnson and Johnson.

In a lot of cases, we just pay for the package. The model paints we use are nearly chemically the same as what you'd roll on your walls, just thinners added (and less glycol I believe), yet there are 220 bottles of Vallejo in a Gallon, which means Home Depot would charge $890 for a can. I know large scale RC plane guys that use Behr Paint on their AC, color matched to RLM and airbrushed just like we do, getting the same results.

Of course, we don't need that much paint, so it's fine to buy 17ml at a time.

I have a steamer trunk sized box of micro balloons that wasn't much more expensive than a shaker container of snow from Woodland Scenics. A bottle of Future and a bottle of Tamiya Flat Clear will get you any sheen clear coat you could want.

So the question is, which do you prefer? There is no wrong answer, I would love to have the spare cash and space to house all those products, so I'm stuck making things on my own. Since I got the iModel app, I've been mixing my existing Vallejo inventory into new colors.

 

[Sherman 18]

I think it's great.

At first about eight years ago I thought "Why, who is going to buy these paint/weathering sets, paint in squeeze bottles or paint mixed for airbrushing?" Paint mixed for airbrushing! Are modelers becoming that big of wussies!

Well since then a couple things have happened since then. One, I have damaged my lungs from using automotive chemicals. Two, my little girl is really getting into modeling, I don't want her having the same health issue. Tried Tamiya paint and hated it, but I force her to use it. Last year I got some Vallejo paint for a couple figures. Loved it, not only was the paint fantastic, I really liked the squeeze bottle. That is when I gave in.

 

[Tojo72]

I like that the manufacturers are doing the mixing and experimenting with pigments,filters,and washes so I don't have to mess things up.I don't produce a lot of models,so I don't go thru supplies so much where I have to worry about cost.

 

[Duke Maddog]

Speaking for myself, I don't buy into any of those other weathering products from Mig or AK Interactive. First off, they are too expensive for me; if I'm going to spend that kind of money; I'll buy another kit instead. Too many of the same effects can be gotten with Windsor-Newton oils and Mona Lisa Thinner. So many times, I see people touting these new products as the "be-all" and "end-all" of model building. I guess; as someone with very limited means, I'd rather use something that is far more affordable and versatile to use. Maybe that means that I'll never make Master-quality models that would take a "Best in Show" like so many other modelers who've used these products, but I'm happy with the results I get from them.

Second of all, I heard from a few friends who have used some of Mig's products on their 1/72 scale armor and vehicle models and found that they don't work. They are too formulated for 1/35th scale models. Every effort they made to use his products in the manner proscribed ended up looking too heavy-handed and overdone. That just gives me another reason not to buy his products.

When it comes to Vallejo paints and other possibilities, I'm game to try anything. I do prefer enamels given the ease of use (for me) and the seemingly effortless application. I've heard of many issues people have had airbrushing acrylics, and I'm hesitant to try it. I have used Vallejo brush paints and I do like them. I have started to add them to my modeling 'arsenal' if you will.

That's my opinion for your consideration.

 

[Skinny_Mike]

An interesting question...

For me, all the weathering products have been a god send. Frankly, I feel I am a good builder but I struggle with my finishes (paint/decal/weathering). Hey - we all have our strengths. I like that AK and Mig have taken a lot of the guess work out of that stage for me. But I will say, it really seems like its all kind of an empire Mig has going on (I mean come on - he started two magazines solely with the intent of advertising his products!). His products seem to work great when used together, but when you start to mix and match different stuff, I seem to run into issues. It may just be me. The one thing that I really really like, is all the tutorials they are putting out on youtube and in the newsletters and on their website. Showing you exactly how to get the best out of their products. That is fantastic for me. I am actually encouraged now to get back into making dioramas as a result of all of these things!

I'm not even going to get started on the paints! I have spent a small fortune on paints from just about every manufacturer out there. Still trying to find what works best for me.

To sum up - I really think all these new products are great for the hobby, people are always going to use what they find works best for themselves. Having the variety around is really not a bad thing. And think about this, if you make things a little easier for someone that maybe isn't as skilled or is maybe just starting out in the hobby, and they can see a decent finished result, they won't get so frustrated and will stay in it, growing our humble little hobby.

Just my two cents.
Skinny Mike

 

[moon puppy]

Honestly I think you guys who are very more artistic than say..me, have the advantage of knowing the root product that most the modeling marketed products are. You have the back ground to know how to use them and when where as we rely on the marketing artist (Mig and others) to tell us what products to use and how. Mig, and others, spends a lot of time teaching stuff for free using their products, well if we want the same results we either have to grow that artistic gene or buy "Panzer Grey Wash" and try to apply it as well as the artist do.

That being said, yeah I'll buy the marketed stuff just for my ease of mind, not having to worry about how to mix what colors to enhance that color. BUT, I'm not buying remarketed Future...just saying.

 

[Iron Mike]

Since I gather this thread was in response to my posting an excerpt from AK's newsletter, allow me to retort. There will always be new products, new and improved variations of the same ol' sh!T, it's up to you whether you buy into it or not. I don't want a 25 gallon jug of some industrial product that will go bad before I use a fraction of it, I want something I can count on 10 times out of 10 to work. What I was really passing along was the techniques at the bottom of the page. Sure, you can buy the giant economy size SPRAY PAINT from Wal Mart for a dollar, but when your model comes out looking like it, where's the savings? I asked a friend earlier today how long he thought it would be before the "experts" poo pooed the thread, guess it didn't take long.

Build 'em if you got 'em, enjoy the ride or find another hobby. B) :drinks

 

[moon puppy]

I think you're reading way more into this question than what's there Mike.

 

[Sharkmouth]

I think you're reading way more into this question than what's there Mike.

Mike, I agree with Bob here. It is simply a question to make us think.

My response is similar to yours, Mike. I like convenience but I also have to learn when I will pay high prices rather than store large amounts which will go bad.

Cases in point; RTV rubber. Bought larger amounts and had to throw away more than half (since my vacuum casting pump broke). Yet, knowing the root ingredient in Tenax 7 and Tamiya Extra Thin allowed me to buy larger cans of the chemicals and save money since that is something that has a long shelf life when considering how much is used.

Gauzy does seem to be Future. Even the sales blurb hints at it by capitalizing the full word "A new FUTURE opens up for modelers," so it may be a nod.

Pigments, I have many sets (thanks to product reviews) and I even have some of the first products from decades ago such as Doc O'Briens pigments and Rustall system. Colored tile grout (includes adhesive) made the Model Maker pigments different but, then again, I knew what was in the bottle.

So, decide what is best for you. Small amounts are great but costly. If you need larger amounts, find out the root ingredient and get yourself a bargain. Just do not lower the quality of the products you get to save money.

Regards,

 

[Brokeneagle]

Well I think it's all good.
If you have an artistic background it's a lot easier, but new ideas and techniques are always interesting to test and see what works for you.
Like any niche market/ hobby product, you pay more when it's packaged and branded , but the convenience is great, just stick to the budget and make sensible choices..... i use it when I need it and do my own thing when i have a better way.
Big volumes aren't practical for me and as said above, I've thrown out plenty of paint because I thought I would use it and didn't.
So ultimately it's whether you want to pay for the convenience and I think the success of these products speaks for them on what the average modeler wants.

Ian.

 

[ausf]

I was not in any way trying to disparage anyone's product as I stated from the start.

I even said, if I had the funding and storage, I'd personally like one of everything.

The AK thread sparked my idea for a conversation on a lazy summer afternoon, that's all.

Mig has done more for the hobby than anyone I can think of. Blending pigments and matching filters to base color is brilliant and it certainly a great line of products.

I've been around pigments for 30 years but I never thought of rubbing them on a model until he did it.

I have the bulk items because I was going to launch a snow, ice and weather effect line about 10 years ago, but my lawyer talked me out of it due to liability issues and insurance. I'm not suggesting anyone to go buy 80 lb bags of pigment.

I was just asking what you guys do. I was the kid who opened a Monogram 17 and got the Shep Paine booklet, then proceeded to spend hours, literally hours, hand sawing old lumber to make sawdust for grass. The products available now blow me away.

A perfect example of what I mean: I swear by Vallejo Poly primers, but they take a while to fully cure to be sandable. Turns out that a light coat of Future sprayed over the primer cures it immediately (posted by someone online a while back). So, if I need to move on with sanding immediately, that's what I do, if not, I let it cure naturally. If Vallejo comes out with a new product called 'Quick Sand', that is the poly with whatever catalyst action Future is providing, Do I buy it? It would probably be more consistent in quality and action, but it's another bottle, another $10.

I'm just asking what you guys would do.

I have hundreds of Vallejo colors on hand (I was a vendor for them), but I never have the right one. When I need Insignia Blue, I find it online for $4 on eBay, but another $4 shipping and it'll take a week. I open the app and find that a blend of 3 or 4 colors I do have (In exact parts)
will match it. It won't be perfect and since I need a new bottle and thinners, probably isn't even that much cheaper than if I was smart enough to buy the color with the kit, but that's where I end up.

No right or wrong, just is.

 

[MrT]

Not wanting to get sucked into some kind of flame war I will say this....I will use whatever works. For good or bad I have my own style, but I welcome any new "nuggets" that may come along that improve my modeling (thanks Mike). I am not a disiple of any particular manufacturer. I use what I want and if that makes me a heretic.....well so be it. I travel my own path. Art has nor should it have any material boundries. Just use what works for you and let the world wonder how you did it.

 

[Iron Mike]

That is exactly what I meant in my response to this thread, Terry. Use what you like, build what you want to build, enjoy the process. Life is short, bench time is too. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[iambrb]

I find this an interesting question, but I tend (perhaps not entirely correctly) to view it from a different angle. I was in and back out & now back in to modeling over the time of this website (and it’s predecessor), so I do not have the experience level of you guys. Some of y’all are just absolute artists and regular ‘mix-wizards’ as MP has stated, but I do not (as yet) have nearly that level of skill. So for that reason, a lot of these products are just great for me. That said, I too find them very expensive even from this point of view. Similar to Duke, I think that some of the oils can do most of this, I just have no experience in using them, so until I gain that, these various sets of weathering and paint products are just right for a guy of my current skill level. Vallejo’s recent release of 27 (!!!) products is really neat, but my goodness, you can go broke buying this stuff!

Some of the recent products that I have found, while very specialized, I think are going to be very useful. I just the other day got a bottle of the Vallejo product that is supposed to have grass effect mixed right in, and I recently received two bottles of wash from Adam Wilder products that I am hoping will work very well, they came in 50ml bottles at a cost equal to half that amount from AK and the others!

So I guess that puts me more towards really liking this stuff that is coming out, but at the same time wanting to gain the experience and knowledge to do it my-own-self, hope that makes sense

 

[Jeeves]

Great discussion Jeff- not sure how it got all discombobulated like it did- but hopefully you got some answers that helped.

For me personally- the model budget is low end so I am careful with what I grab. I did the Doc Obriens powders for a while and still use them for scenery work and the like...but when I went down to VA with John Steinman and Saúl, I was fortunate to meet some great people including Mig who was just starting AK at the time and Rick Fowler who was with Mig Productions. Rick is a great guy and showed me some great stuff in one of his classes- so I bought a few containers from him and never looked back. That blew Doc's stuff out of the water...and I still have a good amount of that stuff left so haven't bought anything else since.

Won the auto category over at the SMA contest last year so I received a free assortment of Adam Wilder's stuff. From what I've tried so far it is pretty comparable- but at zero investment from me

 

[135engineer]

I dont normally get into this type of debate ....... I am the type of person who builds molds and chemically engineers alot of what I want or need . On the other hand sometimes there is a good product already on the bench that serves the purpose. I guess to maake a long story short that is why they call it modelling not assembling otherwise if it were just assembling it would be building puzzles...... so the question is are we modelleres or puzzlers. Personally I am a modeler not a puzzle builder. Do what you like use what you like and let the chips fall where they will :hmmm :hmmm :hmmm :hmmm :hmmm :hmmm :hmmm :hmmm

 

[moon puppy]

Me, I'm a modeler, especially on those kits where the parts are just suggestions or the PE builds up a square box for a round motor. That or I just chunk it to the shelf of doom.

 

[paddy]

My view ?
Well there is a place for everything, if people buy it they must want it.
The problem is you must not let it ruin your hobby.
Case example.

I used to be a very keen aircraft photographer. Getting that perfect picture and freezing a moment in time others might have missed was the challenge. Being in the right place at the right time with the right set up. Waiting for photos to come back from the developer with anticipation.......Even collecting cameras and lenses, flash units and motor drives etc was part of the fun
Now i hardly ever take aircraft photos. Modern tech has ruined my hobby. I can take a hopeless picture on a phone and fix it in 10 minutes in photoshop. Shops are full of magazines with pictures better than i could take (all photoshopped) so what's the point ?

Ready mixed paints and weathering products, masking tapes in a 100 different widths are fine but often working out a solution yourself to a problem is better than buying a solution to a problem, isnt that why we do this ?
If i spend an afternoon trying to create mud in 1/48 scale with talcum powder, paint,glue, flour or something and someone else says you should just buy Tamiya "mud"..that's when i start to lose interest in the whole thing
I suppose what i am saying is once it becomes possible for anyone to build a perfect model then i sort of lose the will to produce my normal second best imperfect models ?
A pet hate of mine is paint masks. I mean once you get the manufacturer to mask up your camo or windows you are one step away from just buying ready painted windows and then........... ready made models. :laugh:

 

[Swordsman]

I'm just getting started back into the hobby, I find all the stuff that is available... Fantastic, I have tried to run a hobby shop, but there is so much out there and so much to learn, convenience is for me. But if you have shallow pockets and a dwindling customer base it's hard to have one of everything. I keep a good supply of Citadel paints in stock. Fixing to try tru-color paint line (a Floquil replacement) love the floquil product, Vallejo paint is very good I need more space to be able to be a proper shop. Less expenses, I want to promote the hobby, more than make money, but it takes money to operate. Guess I'm saying support your LHS ... I was blessed the other day when the Jeff, Grace & the rest of his family visited Greenville ...

 

[moon puppy]

I think the bottom line is do it the way you want, just as long as you're doing something!

It's always good to know about alternatives, knowing how the premade stuff is made, mix your own or buy it in a bottle. Just do it.

What I gotta figure out is finding time lately. :frantic