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Possibly troubling model news....
- Thread starter Jeeves
- Start date
White_Wolf
Master at Arms
This is perfectly in line with everything else that is happening in the world, and has been for the past 30 years or so.
With very few exceptions, original brands are no longer in the hands of original owners or their families.
The most stupid thing, the absolute killer is the trend that started when Universities / Colleges etc started manufacturing "managers" and "project managers". The conveyor belt never stopped since. Not talking about professional organizations that accredit project managers for example, and require proof of activities and continuous learning, that's a different thing.
Examples from my own experience - I was working for a company that delivered control systems to customers. One day, a mathematician was appointed as Director of Operations (or similar) and he came onsite where I was working on a very challenging project, not so much on the technical side, but rather with a very difficult customer. He made the statement that"The project manager does not need to have technical knowledge on the project", which left me in shock. I asked him this "OK, I get the point, but, if that is the case, what gives the PM the authority to make all the calls?" He replied "The fact that he is the PM does". More confusion for me. I went on to ask him "So, tell me, if you are the PM in charge of everything, and you ask me, the subcontractor, how long it would take to deliver a certain technical thing, if I say 3 weeks, how would you know if I were correct or totally wrong, because that could have a big impact on the project?". He gave me one of them superior attitudes, an aristocratic smile and replied "Because the PM knows everything".
I should have kept my mouth shut, but I didn't. Less than 2 years later, the company went under. It was purchased by the bigger fish, a huge international telecom fish. The same attitude was to be found with the new owners. Nobody there understood the previous business, nobody cared about anything else but their processes, procedures, strategies and plans. I left, the whole office I was a member of, which produced 85% of the revenue for the entire group closed down, because everyone resigned. One last thing to say here is that, the first owners, the two guys who had started the business, were top notch SCADA engineers, ran the business for 20 years, making it a great success story in Australia.
A second example - I spoke to a lady who graduated from University, with a degree in management. I asked her "A manager of what?". She replied "Could be anything and everything."
To be a manager, a real manager, you must listen before you make decisions, especially if you don't have any idea about what you manage. You must realize and accept that as a manager, you can turn a dump into a success story, but you can also, even more easily, turn a decent thing into a mess. The charisma, leadership capabilities, all those come into the picture too.
Bottom line is this - we do not live in a "let's sit down and talk about the business" world anymore. Everything is process driven, sales targets driven, there is no desire to listen and learn at the top levels. Nobody at those levels ever makes a mistake, everything is some poor guy's fault, it's always somebody else. When it's all done, they will move on to another managerial position, while everyone else, employees, families, loyal customers are left with the memories of what used to be this or the other great brand.
Me and my big mouth ......
Laurence
With very few exceptions, original brands are no longer in the hands of original owners or their families.
The most stupid thing, the absolute killer is the trend that started when Universities / Colleges etc started manufacturing "managers" and "project managers". The conveyor belt never stopped since. Not talking about professional organizations that accredit project managers for example, and require proof of activities and continuous learning, that's a different thing.
Examples from my own experience - I was working for a company that delivered control systems to customers. One day, a mathematician was appointed as Director of Operations (or similar) and he came onsite where I was working on a very challenging project, not so much on the technical side, but rather with a very difficult customer. He made the statement that"The project manager does not need to have technical knowledge on the project", which left me in shock. I asked him this "OK, I get the point, but, if that is the case, what gives the PM the authority to make all the calls?" He replied "The fact that he is the PM does". More confusion for me. I went on to ask him "So, tell me, if you are the PM in charge of everything, and you ask me, the subcontractor, how long it would take to deliver a certain technical thing, if I say 3 weeks, how would you know if I were correct or totally wrong, because that could have a big impact on the project?". He gave me one of them superior attitudes, an aristocratic smile and replied "Because the PM knows everything".
I should have kept my mouth shut, but I didn't. Less than 2 years later, the company went under. It was purchased by the bigger fish, a huge international telecom fish. The same attitude was to be found with the new owners. Nobody there understood the previous business, nobody cared about anything else but their processes, procedures, strategies and plans. I left, the whole office I was a member of, which produced 85% of the revenue for the entire group closed down, because everyone resigned. One last thing to say here is that, the first owners, the two guys who had started the business, were top notch SCADA engineers, ran the business for 20 years, making it a great success story in Australia.
A second example - I spoke to a lady who graduated from University, with a degree in management. I asked her "A manager of what?". She replied "Could be anything and everything."
To be a manager, a real manager, you must listen before you make decisions, especially if you don't have any idea about what you manage. You must realize and accept that as a manager, you can turn a dump into a success story, but you can also, even more easily, turn a decent thing into a mess. The charisma, leadership capabilities, all those come into the picture too.
Bottom line is this - we do not live in a "let's sit down and talk about the business" world anymore. Everything is process driven, sales targets driven, there is no desire to listen and learn at the top levels. Nobody at those levels ever makes a mistake, everything is some poor guy's fault, it's always somebody else. When it's all done, they will move on to another managerial position, while everyone else, employees, families, loyal customers are left with the memories of what used to be this or the other great brand.
Me and my big mouth ......
Laurence
Jeeves
Well-known member
I hear you! I've been teaching for 20 years and have seen 7 administrators come and go...the woman they are currently planning to hire as superintendent has very little teaching experience as a math teacher and yet thinks she has more experience in what we science teachers need to be "more successful"...schools are being run more and more like businesses...only major thing lacking is we aren't actually profiting....
helios
Well-known member
It's one thing to head up something you don't completely understand. But by god you need to surround yourself w/ people that know the subject matter, take their council to heart, and get in the trenches to understand first hand how things work.
Laurence, I know exactly where you're coming from. I've been working with my existing company for 10 years (in the project controls department after starting on a piping crew), and we routinely have to tune up the fresh out of college, engineering company based PMs on the projects here at the refinery. Sometimes you're lucky enough to get one that just doesn't get how things work/progress in the field. They can't see past numbers on a piece of paper.
Laurence, I know exactly where you're coming from. I've been working with my existing company for 10 years (in the project controls department after starting on a piping crew), and we routinely have to tune up the fresh out of college, engineering company based PMs on the projects here at the refinery. Sometimes you're lucky enough to get one that just doesn't get how things work/progress in the field. They can't see past numbers on a piece of paper.
Laurence, Don't even get me started about PMs 
I've worked with two of them that understood what they were doing because they had actually pulled cable in a network install and were willing to climb a ladder to install a wireless access point. They were the exception. Now they have gotten to the point where they don't use PMs, they just turn it over to the techs (me), after all, I'm not paid at that level.
I guess I don't keep up on modeling news. Did Revelle go bankrupt?
I've worked with two of them that understood what they were doing because they had actually pulled cable in a network install and were willing to climb a ladder to install a wireless access point. They were the exception. Now they have gotten to the point where they don't use PMs, they just turn it over to the techs (me), after all, I'm not paid at that level.
I guess I don't keep up on modeling news. Did Revelle go bankrupt?
White_Wolf
Master at Arms
Almost every project I have ever been on for the past 10 years had to suffer from the same thing - PMs who had no technical idea about the scope, and, worst than that, never listened.
When I was working for this water authority, there was a project to expand the SCADA data collection and bringing it to the business, with me being the only guy who knew the technical side, as I was employed to do just that. The project was about bringing 12 treatment plants into the system, data collection and all. The PM was a contractor, paid some $1,000 per day, who knew nothing about SCADA etc. I told him that I wanted things to work, don't care who takes the credit for it, and I could do one site per day easily. He freaked out at the thought that a 6 months project could be delivered in less than a month, after all, his money was all he cared about.
Then I presented the technical side of things, what needs to be done, how long it would take, timing, all of it. He never listened, made stupid decisions, had a team of experts to deploy the software and start collecting data from a site, because I was not supposed to have done that. Two days later, the team of seven people couldn't make it work. They came to me for help, told them to turn around and go kiss the PM's butt, cuz' that would help things
Immediately, I was the bad guy, arrogant and all that. My boss comes to me, said please, I asked him to sit next to me, and, in 45 minutes the site was up and running.
Not saying all of the above to make myself look smart and important, just to illustrate something we have all seen, if not gone through. Now I need a drink, sudden taste of vomit in my mouth ....yuck
When I was working for this water authority, there was a project to expand the SCADA data collection and bringing it to the business, with me being the only guy who knew the technical side, as I was employed to do just that. The project was about bringing 12 treatment plants into the system, data collection and all. The PM was a contractor, paid some $1,000 per day, who knew nothing about SCADA etc. I told him that I wanted things to work, don't care who takes the credit for it, and I could do one site per day easily. He freaked out at the thought that a 6 months project could be delivered in less than a month, after all, his money was all he cared about.
Then I presented the technical side of things, what needs to be done, how long it would take, timing, all of it. He never listened, made stupid decisions, had a team of experts to deploy the software and start collecting data from a site, because I was not supposed to have done that. Two days later, the team of seven people couldn't make it work. They came to me for help, told them to turn around and go kiss the PM's butt, cuz' that would help things
Immediately, I was the bad guy, arrogant and all that. My boss comes to me, said please, I asked him to sit next to me, and, in 45 minutes the site was up and running. Not saying all of the above to make myself look smart and important, just to illustrate something we have all seen, if not gone through. Now I need a drink, sudden taste of vomit in my mouth ....yuck
Jeeves
Well-known member
Laurence, Don't even get me started about PMs
I've worked with two of them that understood what they were doing because they had actually pulled cable in a network install and were willing to climb a ladder to install a wireless access point. They were the exception. Now they have gotten to the point where they don't use PMs, they just turn it over to the techs (me), after all, I'm not paid at that level.
I guess I don't keep up on modeling news. Did Revelle go bankrupt?
As of yesterday Revell and Monogram did....
135engineer
Active member
Bottom line is this - we do not live in a "let's sit down and talk about the business" world anymore. Everything is process driven, sales targets driven, there is no desire to listen and learn at the top levels. Nobody at those levels ever makes a mistake, everything is some poor guy's fault, it's always somebody else. When it's all done, they will move on to another managerial position, while everyone else, employees, families, loyal customers are left with the memories of what used to be this or the other great brand.
I copied that because it is one of the most profound and far reaching statements I have seen in quite some time. That statement in itself sums up almost every industry in existence. When that can be fixed.......all will be right
I copied that because it is one of the most profound and far reaching statements I have seen in quite some time. That statement in itself sums up almost every industry in existence. When that can be fixed.......all will be right
135engineer
Active member
The copied statement has moved me. I have copied it to my personal FB time line and am sharing it . I did not say where it came from only that it was copied from a forum I have been a member of for years
White_Wolf
Master at Arms
Thank you for the kind words. I spat it out as it came to mind, there was no preparation
You can say where you got it from if you wish, I got no problem with that. I did notice however, that, people usually tend to pay a little bit more attention to the words if there is no author mentioned. As soon as it is presented as a quote from this or the other person, nowadays at least, they look at the name and immediately form an opinion, without even looking at what was written in the first place. It's got to be someone super famous, preferably from the past, for people to pay attention.
Apologies for hijacking the thread. And sorry for the news about Revell Monogram.
Old Dog
Well-known member
Here is a link to a fairly detailed discussion concerning the sale of Revell and Revell of Germany which includes a lot of links to sources of information on the auction and sale Revell sale
It doesn't sound all doom and gloom to me !
It doesn't sound all doom and gloom to me !
Jeeves
Well-known member
I apparently missed part 2...but Bert put up another good post today:
Bert Kinzey posts:
The end of Revell and Monogram, Part 3
WHAT SADDENS ME THE MOST
After starting Detail & Scale in 1977, I have had the opportunity to work with Revell and Monogram almost constantly. This began when Revell was still in Venice, California, and Monogram was in Morton Grove, Illinois, and it continued after the merger, literally up to day before yesterday when the final end came.
It's been a wonderful run most of the way. I did the research for several new kits as well as updates to existing ones. When they began the ProModeler series of kits, they contracted with me to do the instructions, add Detail & Scale photos as well as other photos, modeling tips, and painting tips. Then there was the books in kits programs, where I created eleven 48-page monographs to go in kits. It was all an enjoyable part of the work I did to help make the hobby and their kits better for the modeler. While I also have worked with several other model manufacturers as well, all of whom were great to work with, I admit my partiality to working with Revell and Monogram, then Revell-Monogram, because I was so fond of their kits as a young boy growing up.
So while I have had this connection with them for many year, what saddens me the most about the final demise of the two American model manufacturers is something quite different. Like many of you, I grew up building their models. I remember Revell's Snark missile on a launch stand, and Monogram's on a transporter trailer. I learned about the early space program building Revell's Redstone, Atlas, Jupiter, and Thor missiles. I fell in love with aircraft carriers building Revell's ESSEX, FORRESTAL, and MIDWAY class carrier models, and loved all of their ships. And of course, there were many aircraft from Revell, ranging from X-planes to Century Series fighters, and there were a wide variety of carrier-based aircraft among their kits as well. I even built their M4 Sherman tank, Long Tom with hight speed tractor, mobile bridge unit, self-propelled gun, armored car, and many other military models. And of course there were their missiles, Corporal, Lacross, Honest John, Little John, and Dart.
From the Monogram side, there were those wonderful 1/48th scale kits of World War II aircraft. A Wildcat with folding wings, spinning prop, and rolling wheels, and an Avenger and a Hellcat with the same working features as well as many more. These evolved into far more detailed kits that were more accurate scale models than toys, and I built scores of them from Thunderbolts to Super Sabres. Their 1/48th scale kits of the 1970s led the way for more accurate and detailed models, and they were the very first important step in moving model building from the toy world to a serious art form of accurately representing the real thing. They survived much longer than the companies who produced the simpler, less detailed, and more austere model kits.
Many of you reading this did the same thing I did during those years. We learned history. We learned about the real thing that was represented. In one hobby, we were educated and given a chance to create something with our own two hands at the same time, and then show others what we had done. As Revell and Monogram grew, we grew, got better, and our passion for all of this grew with us. Revell and Monogram were an important part of our young lives, and later our adult lives, for all of us who have grown up with this hobby. In my case, it turned into a business, and it's why, when people ask me what I do, I often say, "It's a hobby that got out of hand." But it was still always my hobby that I truly loved.
So this is what saddens me the most. It's the memories of all those kits. It's all we learned growing up, building their models and enjoying a pastime of creating replicas of things we found to be interesting and important. For many of us, this was and remains a very cherished part of our lives, and because of that, the end of these two companies is more than just that, it's also an end of an era.
For sure, scale models will still be produced, the hobby will go on, but it just won't ever be the same. Bert Kinzey
Bert Kinzey posts:
The end of Revell and Monogram, Part 3
WHAT SADDENS ME THE MOST
After starting Detail & Scale in 1977, I have had the opportunity to work with Revell and Monogram almost constantly. This began when Revell was still in Venice, California, and Monogram was in Morton Grove, Illinois, and it continued after the merger, literally up to day before yesterday when the final end came.
It's been a wonderful run most of the way. I did the research for several new kits as well as updates to existing ones. When they began the ProModeler series of kits, they contracted with me to do the instructions, add Detail & Scale photos as well as other photos, modeling tips, and painting tips. Then there was the books in kits programs, where I created eleven 48-page monographs to go in kits. It was all an enjoyable part of the work I did to help make the hobby and their kits better for the modeler. While I also have worked with several other model manufacturers as well, all of whom were great to work with, I admit my partiality to working with Revell and Monogram, then Revell-Monogram, because I was so fond of their kits as a young boy growing up.
So while I have had this connection with them for many year, what saddens me the most about the final demise of the two American model manufacturers is something quite different. Like many of you, I grew up building their models. I remember Revell's Snark missile on a launch stand, and Monogram's on a transporter trailer. I learned about the early space program building Revell's Redstone, Atlas, Jupiter, and Thor missiles. I fell in love with aircraft carriers building Revell's ESSEX, FORRESTAL, and MIDWAY class carrier models, and loved all of their ships. And of course, there were many aircraft from Revell, ranging from X-planes to Century Series fighters, and there were a wide variety of carrier-based aircraft among their kits as well. I even built their M4 Sherman tank, Long Tom with hight speed tractor, mobile bridge unit, self-propelled gun, armored car, and many other military models. And of course there were their missiles, Corporal, Lacross, Honest John, Little John, and Dart.
From the Monogram side, there were those wonderful 1/48th scale kits of World War II aircraft. A Wildcat with folding wings, spinning prop, and rolling wheels, and an Avenger and a Hellcat with the same working features as well as many more. These evolved into far more detailed kits that were more accurate scale models than toys, and I built scores of them from Thunderbolts to Super Sabres. Their 1/48th scale kits of the 1970s led the way for more accurate and detailed models, and they were the very first important step in moving model building from the toy world to a serious art form of accurately representing the real thing. They survived much longer than the companies who produced the simpler, less detailed, and more austere model kits.
Many of you reading this did the same thing I did during those years. We learned history. We learned about the real thing that was represented. In one hobby, we were educated and given a chance to create something with our own two hands at the same time, and then show others what we had done. As Revell and Monogram grew, we grew, got better, and our passion for all of this grew with us. Revell and Monogram were an important part of our young lives, and later our adult lives, for all of us who have grown up with this hobby. In my case, it turned into a business, and it's why, when people ask me what I do, I often say, "It's a hobby that got out of hand." But it was still always my hobby that I truly loved.
So this is what saddens me the most. It's the memories of all those kits. It's all we learned growing up, building their models and enjoying a pastime of creating replicas of things we found to be interesting and important. For many of us, this was and remains a very cherished part of our lives, and because of that, the end of these two companies is more than just that, it's also an end of an era.
For sure, scale models will still be produced, the hobby will go on, but it just won't ever be the same. Bert Kinzey
White_Wolf
Master at Arms
I really hope it is good news. At the same time, I have a bit of reservation, at least until we see the clear direction this will be going. Capital fund investors, private equity firms etc buy companies only to sell them later. This tells me the purchase was not by enthusiastic modelers with lots of money and a nose for business, but rather by people who are only after making profit by selling it a little bit later on.
I hope I am wrong, I really like Revell stuff.
Laurence
ausf
Master at Arms
Same thing happened to Aurora.
The guys who started it fought, but always had the company and the people in mind. As they aged, they sold to corporate but stated on as advisors but you know how that goes.
So instead of working within their means and using their knowledge and instincts, a CEO and board made decisions, took on debt and chased fads. Became a tiny division in a larger machine.
Luckily a huge Aurora fan (founder of Polar Lights, a takeoff on Aurora) found and bought certain molds cheap before they were scrapped, but a majority of them were lost forever.
They were one of the largest modeling companies in the world when privately owned, then became a write off for corporate greed.
The guys who started it fought, but always had the company and the people in mind. As they aged, they sold to corporate but stated on as advisors but you know how that goes.
So instead of working within their means and using their knowledge and instincts, a CEO and board made decisions, took on debt and chased fads. Became a tiny division in a larger machine.
Luckily a huge Aurora fan (founder of Polar Lights, a takeoff on Aurora) found and bought certain molds cheap before they were scrapped, but a majority of them were lost forever.
They were one of the largest modeling companies in the world when privately owned, then became a write off for corporate greed.
135engineer
Active member
Rhino
Super Moderator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqzEUEbTIv0
I believe is true that the one constant in our World is Change.
Guys, do we recall how many times Airfix fallen into ashes, to arise, once again like the Phoenix, anew?
Consider the nifty new toolings Airfix has offered of late.
What happens if Revell & Monogram go the same route? Would you like to see a re-tooled 1/25 Thames Panel Van model that fit, and went together well? A brand new Martin P6M-5 SeaMaster in a constant scale? Many of our childhood "friends" may yet emerge anew. Revell of Germany's kits have set a standard for quality kits at a reasonable price for 10 years at least. More new issues of detailed Supjects? Patience, Brothers. Have a little Faith.
I can speak only for myself. I may be overly optimistic. I have to believe so many profit producing products will not go by the wayside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GND10sWq0n0
I believe is true that the one constant in our World is Change.
Guys, do we recall how many times Airfix fallen into ashes, to arise, once again like the Phoenix, anew?
Consider the nifty new toolings Airfix has offered of late.
What happens if Revell & Monogram go the same route? Would you like to see a re-tooled 1/25 Thames Panel Van model that fit, and went together well? A brand new Martin P6M-5 SeaMaster in a constant scale? Many of our childhood "friends" may yet emerge anew. Revell of Germany's kits have set a standard for quality kits at a reasonable price for 10 years at least. More new issues of detailed Supjects? Patience, Brothers. Have a little Faith.
I can speak only for myself. I may be overly optimistic. I have to believe so many profit producing products will not go by the wayside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GND10sWq0n0
Iron Mike
Master At Arms And Resident Curmudgeon
I daresay I could continue to build models for the next 10 or so years without buying ANYTHING new, used or otherwise. I love many of the new tool Revell kits, but they have made their living off their old stash of molds, but how many Chargers, Challengers (out of scale) or Mustangs can one guy have? Much of the younger set isn't interested in something that can't be built in 10 minutes, so why cater resources to the snap kits? Seems many bonehead moves have been made, but haven't we all?
Rhino is correct, I feel someone will pick up this slack, the golden age of modeling is still upon us and R-M could still be a money maker.
:dude
:drinks
Rhino is correct, I feel someone will pick up this slack, the golden age of modeling is still upon us and R-M could still be a money maker.
:dude
:drinks
iambrb
Well-known member
Well from following some of the attached links, it appears that Revell US & GMBH have been sold to a German entity. They if, what I am hearing as accurate, is a holding company, one created specifically to buy Revell that have some experience in the GMBH group, which appears to be better than a bunch of investor bankers that would just part it out and it would in turn fully disappear.
At least this way, there is still a hope that we may see models from this company...keep the prayer going!
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE: More info incoming, this like 40 minute video shows a guy that has been following it in what appears to be good detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vW2e4rmJ44
At least this way, there is still a hope that we may see models from this company...keep the prayer going!
INTELLIGENCE UPDATE: More info incoming, this like 40 minute video shows a guy that has been following it in what appears to be good detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vW2e4rmJ44
