Discussion: Panzer Grey

[AndyFettes]

The other day I had the good fortune to wander in Barnes and Noble and found 2, yes ! 2, modelling mags still on the shelf !!

Military Modelcraft International, edited by my good friend Dave Grummitt

and

MMIR 54

Anyway in MMIR there was an excellent Opel Blitz article written by fellow ModAlliance contributor Rick Lawler

within his fine piece he discussed himself reading an article which discussed the tonal values of Panzer grey(gray) and that the fact that there may be an misconception on whether the grey actually had a blue hue or tinge to it but in fact may have been green or brown.

So I thought lets discuss this within our Sprue University section

So Panzer Grey

Blue green or brown ?

 

[Kreighshoer]

So Panzer Grey

Blue green or brown?

any of them!

taking into consideration that

a) the grey color was delivered as a paste
b) the grey color paste was produced by different facilities
c) the actual painting was done in the production factories by different peoples of different skills
d) the tonal variation was (and is) dependent on what thinning medium was used
e) the tonal variation was also dependent on the thinning ratio
f) environmental influences like sunshine, rain, frost, heat led to fading out and other effects like altering the tint in the grey differed to almost every vehicle

we could say that there is no such thing like 'THE' panzer grey!

when we look at wartime or pre wartime pics we see lots of different grey tones from almost black to very light grey ...

now the hue of the grey - each paint facility used an own mix of pigments to create (read: to come as close as) the grey color ordered by the waffenamt. depending on what material they had handy, the final product differed in the hue ... some were greenish, some blueish, some brownish!

i refuse to accept the claim that there is a rule of thumb on what is 'the only correct' panzer grey ...

a simple example is nature itself ... when the trees have leaves, go out and have a look at some trees in the distance and TRY to guess how many shades of green you see! it's not two or three but it's hundreds and thousands of different greens and it's the same with tonal variations (and hues) of grey mixed from different batches of pastels, made by different facilities, thinned down in different factories by different peoples in different thinning ratios, using different thinning agents and last but not least being applied thinner or thicker (depending on the skills of the person operating the spraygun)

on a sidenote: what happens to a blueish panzer grey when it's covered with a slight cover of yellowish dust? it turns into a greenish hue ...

 

[Cheyenne]

Aside from refering to my post a while back with pics. of different greys :laugh: ..........

Laura has givin the best reasonable , rational , sensible answer I've ever read on Panzer grey tonal variations .

Check and mate .........

 

[ricklawler]

Oh my ears are burning!!!

Hey guys, how's everyone been?

It's been quite a while since I built the Opel as seen in MMiR (2 plus years!!!) so my recall is a little cloudy. The information regarding the Panzer Grey came from an article written by Tom Cockle, but I can't remember where I saw it.

Until reading his assertion regarding Panzer Grey I (as many of you) was content with the conventional wisdom that Panzer Grey was of a bluish tint, and that all subsequent Filtering/weathering would follow the blue dictates. Now that Brown was in the color mix a whole new set of finishing opportunities presented itself and I was only too happy to give it a try.

So, what did I do differently? As with most of my project my base colors are done with Tamiya acrylics. In the case of Panzer Grey vehicles I will usually use about a 50/50 mix of Panzer Grey with Light Grey - plus a drop or two of Medium Blue (XF18). In this case I simply replaced the blue with Red Brown (XF64). At this point the change in the color is subtle, the latter being a little warmer and with a very slight red/brown tint. But - and this is what I believe to be the most important part of the painting process - it "shifted" my base colors just enough that my subsequent weathering layers would continue to accentuate the "warmer-browner" underlying tone. I continued to play off the "brown" theory by applying brownish toned Filters (Vallejo acrylics) and oils during the finishing process.

Whether brown or blue is "right or wrong" wasn't the point. For me, the information provided in Tom's article simply sparked a creative exercise. I can say that the brown grey finish is pleasing to look at and looks to be every bit as "authentic" as any of the other Panzer Grey colors seen in period photos or on the modeling forums.

Here is a couple of photos of the Opel - first photo shows the base color Panzer Grey after the acrylic filters have been applied:

And the finished piece;

Let the conversation continue!!!

Rick

 

[moon puppy]

Hia Rick!

Sounds like the same deal with Olive Drab.

 

[AndyFettes]

Excellent replies all,

Laura, was this paste used in the same way as the later Brown and green camouflage and it could be thinned with petrol and water ?

I thought for reply was exceedingly good

Rick thank you for replying and adding insight

Just what I was after !!

 

[Kreighshoer]

Laura, was this paste used in the same way as the later Brown and green camouflage and it could be thinned with petrol and water ?

i can't confirm that! i simply don't know!

my educated guess is, that factories have been supplied with thinner mediums (maybe rectified turpentine? ) ... the brown and green was applied in the field so they had to take what they had handy, in the factories they had other sources ...

 

[Brokeneagle]

Nice thread.
I agree with all above.........
But would like add a couple of things
- I mix colors all the time and can never get them exactly the same, even when it's grey.
- As stated above all paint used by the German forces was subject to multiple variables whether factory or field finished.
- Our models are at scale and this also has an effect on the tone, contrast and intensity.
- Our visual record of those colors is subject to many variables.
- Color RAL swatches are a factory baseline tool that serve as a standard or guide for a median finish - nothing more due to all above. Luftwaffe or WEHRMACHT.

* Plus it suits painters to have a range, it's more fun to model.

Gotta love models.
P.S. Rick Lawlers Opel is a great - the shovel really adds to the overall look.

 

[panzerace007]

Bravo !! Awesome discussion ! I too think that Laura straight up Nailed it !! On th button !!

@RICK - Hey, It's great to see ya !! :dude Great discussion. I Dig th Theory of a red/brown Hue ! Again, as I look at th Opel finished .... it also has, to Me , a bit of a Greenish Hue when taking into account th Canvas cover & that's after leaning the Pz.Grey toward the Red/Brown side .

Well .. That pretty much sums it up ..... Thanx again Laura & Rick . Lock Stock & Barrel.

Of course We could further go on to compare th varying tones/hues of Pz. Grey through photographs, but then a whole different dynamic comes into play ... The War Period Film, how it was handled before developing, the whole transfer, How it was printed, Then th Media to which it was transfered as a computer image .... yatta, yatta ,yatta ....

But I really Dig this discussion !!

Now ..... Next Color to discuss , in a different thread ..... The Famed , Mythical "Tunisian Green " that a few Tigers & Pz. III's & IV's were allegedly shot in ..... any one ... Bueller , Bueller , Bueller ..

Andy - We could have this as a Sprue University "Case Study" just add different colors( threads) ... i.e. Olive Drab , Field Grey Uniform color , The Troppen Scheme & I'm sure there are some colors in debate on th High Flyin side of things ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6KaBynj0S8​

:erik

 

[Cheyenne]

Excellent point Erik , ......... I posted these pics. in a thread awhile ago in an answer to using color period photos from WWII , as a correct reference to vehicle colors as being " true " .

We as modelers can't even use these as " gospel " for color reference .
Different film .
Different development methods .
Different copying methods for books and mags.

Plus , ........ the ever evil ,........ colorised photo .

All excellent points from the previous posts , suffice to say , ......... being in the ballpark so to speak on any particular color should pass muster .
Once again back to Lauras post , we can only take the written information we have on factory , field etc. paints and application and make our own educated guesses .

Refer to Ian's post , ...... mixing colors all the time and never getting the EXACT color twice , ..... same as in field and factory .

 

[Gunfighter45]

Awhile back I had the same issue with a 2 1/2 ton I had built for my uncle who was Nam. What shade O.D.?
He told me in his unit they used what they had to thin the paint. ( stateside he worked in custom car paint
business ) He told me they used gasoline on one job. When the sun hit it, it took a purple cast.

field modifications

( I settled for a toned down OD on the truck )

Mike

 

[ricklawler]

..... as I look at th Opel finished .... it also has, to Me , a bit of a Greenish Hue when taking into account th Canvas cover & that's after leaning the Pz.Grey toward the Red/Brown side .

Hi guys.

Erik - to quote from the MMiR article -

"...And, although in real life the entire vehicle would have been initially painted with the same color I figured that over time and especially in harsh conditions the different materials of the trucks body (metal cab v. wooden bed) would weather and fade to slightly different colors."

If I recall the rear bed as given a light green filter. Good eyes, my friend.

Rick

 

[kryptosdaddy]

I started one of these a few months ago and I wish Laura had chimmed in then because that was the best explanation ever! Thanks Laura, for putting it in language a hard headed southerner could understand!