Mystery M3 Lee Model = which variant?

[Tankbuilder]

Hi there.

Ever start some modifications to a model then put it on the shelf unfinished and leave it there for so long that you forget what version you were making the model? That's what happened to me with this Tamiya M3 Lee. I forget which variant it's supposed to be.

All the variants were labeled but over the years a couple of the labels have fallen off the models.

I do know it's not the M3A3, the M3A4 or the M3A5.

I started to sand off the rivets on the hull sides. Therefore it appears to have been in the process of being converted to a welded hull variant. That leads me to think that it was going to be the welded hull M3A2. If that's so then the rear exhaust is wrong according to my Squadron Signal M3 Lee/Grant in Action book image on page 23.

Here are the images of the model.












What do you fellows think? Change the exhaust and remove the rest of the rivets and call it an M3A2?

Thanks and cheers from Peter

 

[Tankbuilder]

After further lengthy perusal of my references and notes (notes from years ago) I've decided, based on the process of elimination that this model was supposed to be an M3A2. I'm still not sure why I put on those air cleaners. Oh well they'll get replaced with the proper exhaust later today.

Spent a bit of time since the OP working on this model. I removed the rivet details on the roof, removed the reinforcing braces and plugged the four holes they left.

Cheers from Peter

 

[moon puppy]

did you have a reference picture of one that might have had that air cleaner?
I saw some shots somewhere of war games being conducted here in SC back in 1938-9, one was going over a bridge and the decking failed. Wish I could find that again, great pictures.

 

[MrT]

4724 units M3s were built in the first batch, starting from mid-1941, and a second one of 1334 units was built until December 1942, named M3A1 (Lee II in British service) up to the M3A5. The M3A1 featured a cast rounded hull, with a low profile turret and slightly thicker armor. Only 300 M3A1s were built, followed by the M3A2 (Lee III), with a welded but sharp angled hull, of which only 12 units were produced. The M3A3 (also called Lee IV and V), featured a welded hull, a pair of GM 6-71 diesels, and fixed or eliminated side doors (322 units). The M3A4 (Lee VI) had a stretched welded hull, and a new Chrysler A57 multibank engine, a strange assembly of five 6-cyl L-head car engines mated to a common crankshaft, boasting a final 21 liters for 470 bhp and a lot of torque. This was well-appreciated, as the initial model was criticized for being under-powered. Only 109 of these M3A4 were built. The last production (591 units), mostly fielded by the British army, was the M3A5, equipped with the twin GM 6-71 diesels, but with a riveted hull and Lee turret. Strangely, they were called "Grant II" in British service. Due to the many contractors involved, notably the cast turret foundries, these variants showed further variety in the shape of the hull, turret and details, notably due to different casting procedures.

M3 Lee, early production model, belonging to the 13th Armoured Regiment, belonging to the First Armoured Division, attached to the First Infantry Division (the "Big Red One"). North Africa, Souk El-Abra, November 1942. Many M3s had been part of Operation Torch. It was then the main US medium tank.

M3 Lee number three "Kentucky", belonging to the F Company, 2nd US Tank Battalion, 13th Armored Regiment, attached to the First Armoured Division, Oran, December 1942. Notice the early initial long caliber model. The muzzle blast had a tendency to provoke excessive vibrations inside the hull.

M3A2 Lee of the 13th Armored Division in Tunisia, January 1943. The improvised camouflage was made of irregular spots of soft sand mixed with adhesive paint over factory olive drab

M3A1 Lee of the Armored Force School at Fort Knox, Kentucky, 1942.

M3A3 Lee, Lend-Lease disesel version, unknown unit, Leningrad front, October 1943. Marking: "Za Rodinu", "For the motherland".

M3A5 Lee 241st Armored Brigade, Stalingrad sector, October 1942.

M3A3 (Lee IV), unknown unit, First Battle of El Alamein, June 1942.

B)

 

[Tankbuilder]

Thanks very much for those colour profiles Mr.T! Now I can apply a variety of paint schemes. The British M3A3 Lee (Grant IV) is interesting too.

I think what might have happened with the rear of my mystery M3 in the OP is that I built the rear whilst looking at the wrong image. Anyhow, I'm building it as an M3A2 as that's the only one missing from the lineup of Lee/Grants based on Tamiya kits that I'd started years ago.

The M3A3 with a Grant turret is net because it means I can switch out a Grant turret for the Lee turret on my M3A3 noe Lee IV and use the Lee turret on my M31 Recovery variant. That's a huge help Mr.T!

Thanks again and cheers from Peter

 

[Dave wahl]

You could always go a little crazy and build the M-3 from the original version of the movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart. I'm thinking of that style for my 1/72 scale Airfix M-3. Just gotta come up with some markings for "Lulubelle". Have a lot of fun.

Dave

 

[moon puppy]

Get in line Dave, I'm going after Lulubelle also, She's MINE!! I got two Lee tanks lined up, surely I can get one out of them.

 

[Tankbuilder]

You could always go a little crazy and build the M-3 from the original version of the movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart. I'm thinking of that style for my 1/72 scale Airfix M-3. Just gotta come up with some markings for "Lulubelle". Have a lot of fun.

Dave

Hijacked thread? Not that it matters now since i'm building this as an M3A2 tank.

You can't build "LULUBELLE" with either an Academy nor a Tamiya M3 Lee kit. "LULUBELLE" was an M3A1 with a CAST hull and is totally different from this kit. You need a resin cast hull conversion or really good carving skills.

BTW, Master Box has a set of figures that looks as if it was designed from the cast of 'SAHARA' and would be perfect for a "LULUBELL" M3A1 Lee model. http://www.mbltd.info/3594.htm

Cheers from Peter

 

[moon puppy]

Hang on Peter, more hijacking...

So what's this Lee? See the M3a1 Cast hull but what's the turret?

 

[moon puppy]

You could always go a little crazy and build the M-3 from the original version of the movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart. I'm thinking of that style for my 1/72 scale Airfix M-3. Just gotta come up with some markings for "Lulubelle". Have a lot of fun.

Dave

Hijacked thread? Not that it matters now since i'm building this as an M3A2 tank.

You can't build "LULUBELLE" with either an Academy nor a Tamiya M3 Lee kit. "LULUBELLE" was an M3A1 with a CAST hull and is totally different from this kit. You need a resin cast hull conversion or really good carving skills.

BTW, Master Box has a set of figures that looks as if it was designed from the cast of 'SAHARA' and would be perfect for a "LULUBELL" M3A1 Lee model. http://www.mbltd.info/3594.htm

Cheers from Peter

Peter, sorry, Lulubell was not a cast hull.

http://bountyjumper.blogspot.com/2009/03/lulubelle-m3-medium-tank-study.html

I've been armed with that link for a long time waiting to the Movie Campaign.

 

[MrT]

Hang on Peter, more hijacking...

So what's this Lee? See the M3a1 Cast hull but what's the turret?

Probably this.....

M3 Lee converted as Canal Defence light (CDL), with projector. The upper turret was replaced by an armoured searchlight, and bears a dummy gun. They had been based around Belgian canals in 1944, but never had the occasion to fight.

B)

 

[Tankbuilder]

You could always go a little crazy and build the M-3 from the original version of the movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart. I'm thinking of that style for my 1/72 scale Airfix M-3. Just gotta come up with some markings for "Lulubelle". Have a lot of fun.

Dave

Hijacked thread? Not that it matters now since i'm building this as an M3A2 tank.

You can't build "LULUBELLE" with either an Academy nor a Tamiya M3 Lee kit. "LULUBELLE" was an M3A1 with a CAST hull and is totally different from this kit. You need a resin cast hull conversion or really good carving skills.

BTW, Master Box has a set of figures that looks as if it was designed from the cast of 'SAHARA' and would be perfect for a "LULUBELL" M3A1 Lee model. http://www.mbltd.info/3594.htm

Cheers from Peter

Peter, sorry, Lulubell was not a cast hull.

http://bountyjumper.blogspot.com/2009/03/lulubelle-m3-medium-tank-study.html

I've been armed with that link for a long time waiting to the Movie Campaign.

My bad! For some reason I thought LULUBELLE was an M3A1 cast hull. Been too long since watching Bogart's SAHARA.

You goung to get the Master Box figures to go with your Lee?

One weird thing about Tamiya is that their M3 GRANT kit has those square air cleaners shown in your link.

The Acdemy LEE kit is really nice and has a pretty complete interior including the 37mm shells.

An interesting LULBELLE build thread is here:
http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/3/t/78156.aspx?sort=DESC

An interesting thread on the origins and restoration of CASSIUS/LULUBELL for the SAHARA remake starring John Belushi.

Cheers from Peter

 

[Tankbuilder]

As Mr.T correctly stated the tank on the transporter is a M3 CDL (Canal Defense Light).

13 million candlepower light through a 2" x 24" vertical slit.

From Wikipedia on its use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_Defence_Light

"Deployment and combat[edit]

The system was highly secret as surprise was considered essential to its use. This hampered its employment as commanders were often unfamiliar with it and did not consider it when drawing up plans for attack.[2]

Bridge at Remagen[edit]

The Allies used the CDLs to protect the Ludendorff Bridge after it was captured during the Battle of Remagen. The Germans used virtually every weapon at their disposal to try to destroy the bridge. That included sending frogmen using Italian underwater breathing apparatus to plant floating mines.[3] But they were discovered by U.S. Army MPs who used Canal Defence Lights to find and blind the swimmers.[4]

The armour of the CDL's made them more suitable for this task than conventional searchlights as, in some sectors, the East bank of the river was held by German forces who subjected the CDL tanks to considerable artillery and small-arms fire. Curiously, the actual use of the system resembled its name, which was intended to be spurious. Later, the battle moved East and the CDLs were used to illuminate the bridges for the benefit of engineers carrying out maintenance. Conventional searchlights would have been more suitable, but none were available. The CDLs were eventually replaced by captured German searchlights.[2]"

Cheers from Peter

 

[moon puppy]

You could always go a little crazy and build the M-3 from the original version of the movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart. I'm thinking of that style for my 1/72 scale Airfix M-3. Just gotta come up with some markings for "Lulubelle". Have a lot of fun.

Dave

Hijacked thread? Not that it matters now since i'm building this as an M3A2 tank.

You can't build "LULUBELLE" with either an Academy nor a Tamiya M3 Lee kit. "LULUBELLE" was an M3A1 with a CAST hull and is totally different from this kit. You need a resin cast hull conversion or really good carving skills.

BTW, Master Box has a set of figures that looks as if it was designed from the cast of 'SAHARA' and would be perfect for a "LULUBELL" M3A1 Lee model. http://www.mbltd.info/3594.htm

Cheers from Peter

Peter, sorry, Lulubell was not a cast hull.

http://bountyjumper.blogspot.com/2009/03/lulubelle-m3-medium-tank-study.html

I've been armed with that link for a long time waiting to the Movie Campaign.

My bad! For some reason I thought LULUBELLE was an M3A1 cast hull. Been too long since watching Bogart's SAHARA.

You goung to get the Master Box figures to go with your Lee?

One weird thing about Tamiya is that their M3 GRANT kit has those square air cleaners shown in your link.

The Acdemy LEE kit is really nice and has a pretty complete interior including the 37mm shells.

An interesting LULBELLE build thread is here:
http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/3/t/78156.aspx?sort=DESC

An interesting thread on the origins and restoration of CASSIUS/LULUBELL for the SAHARA remake starring John Belushi.

Cheers from Peter

Rumor is that the Lee tank that was in the movie "1941" was in fact the same Lulubelle from Sahara, don't know if it was true or not but considering all the nods to other old movies in "1941" (the music from the fight scene of "The Quiet Man") I think it's a nice thought.

 

[MrT]

Sorry Bob not the same tank...

1941

Has Sherman return rollers

Sahara

Early return rollers.

B)

 

[moon puppy]

Ah, guess they just named it Lulubelle. Seriously doubt they would have replaced the boogies during that time.

 

[Tankbuilder]

Ah, guess they just named it Lulubelle. Seriously doubt they would have replaced the boogies during that time.

WHAT THE HE** IS GOING ON WITH REPLIES? # Times I started a reply and 3 times the darn thing simply disappeared ss I was getting a link from another tab! Extremely frustrating that!

 

[moon puppy]

Unless someone else is having the problem Peter I don't even know where to start to look at that problem. Sounds like a problem on in your browser, you run CCleaner?

 

[Tankbuilder]

Ah, guess they just named it Lulubelle. Seriously doubt they would have replaced the boogies during that time.

Let's see if composing this in email then copying and pasting it lets me post it.


The M3 in the movie 1941 was a special build just for that movie.

Some sites where that's mentioned in threads:

from http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_25826-Chrysler-M3--Lee--1941.html

"This Was a Made for Movie vehicle, made to look like an M3, It was owned by a gentleman in southern Ohio, a friend of the family, i have been in this tank, the kicker was, it was made out of wood except for the chassis, the shots inside where from a real M3. The tank has since been sold to a collector in Florida."

From http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1247470350/M3+Lee+Study+-+Lulubelle

"The " weird" M3, fake M3 made with a plywood superstructure, that many of us saw up close and personal at the 2006 Hubbard Ohio AMPS Nats was the M3 model constructed for the John Belushi-Dan Ackroyd movie 1941. It was on the M15 US tank trailer in the second museum gallery. Not the room we had the show in The collection is now in Florida I think Jim Mesko told me.

A very odd site 20 ish years after it was first built.
The plywood veneers/layers were all starting to curl up so the model was looking like a tree or a flower losing its bark or petals
Gosh i wish that collection was still there!"


From http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?23069-M3-Lee-Tank-quot-Lulubelle-quot

"I have the collector's magazine about "1941" from when it was at the cinema. It mentioned that Spielberg specifally wanted an M3 Lee tank but couldn't get his hands on one for the movie so he a repro made on another tanks chassis. I'll have to find the magazine and see if I can find more info for you."

and

"From dvdtalk.com:


Meanwhile, back in the fullsize world, vehicle expert Pat Carman found a self-propelled gun with the same basic chassis as the extinct M3 Lee, being used for gunnery practice on an Air Force target range. Its purchase was completed but the time factor for delivery had some red tape snafus, so together with Ken Swenson and some cooperative servicemen, Carman 'legally' smuggled the tank from its desert base in an operation worthy of the Impossible Mission Forces. Within weeks Pat had a new diesel engine in the beast, and with a plywood facelift it became the fullsized 'Lulubelle' tank named after Humphrey Bogart's honey in Sahara. Later, it was Pat himself who manned the tank with pinpoint accuracy when it crushed cars and drove into the midst of hundreds of rioting extras. Weirdly, in an unreported late-night incident, someone used the tank to crush a number of vehicles parked on the TBS lot in Burbank!"

There you have it folks.

Cheers from Peter

 

[moon puppy]

Thanks Peter, think I'm sticking with the Sahara Lee.